КОНКУРС ПЕНИЯ КАНАРЕЕК в Москве



Модераторы: Ярослава, Светлана01, Модераторы

Сообщение Дик » Ср дек 12, 2007 23:13

Всем привет! У Александра Цветухина птица была продана в молодом возрасте и почти два года птица была у Зуева. А вы знаете, чтобы птице улучшить и сохранить песню для этого с ней надо работать.
Говорить мы все можем, птица гуляет, с отбоя начинает, птица прошла
а остальные только пытались пройти.
Я одно хочу сказать, что увидел то и продаю, из конкурса сделали рынок и все быстрее скидывать хорошую птицу пока покупатель есть.
До конкурса всем дело нет. Поэтому и птица посредственная.
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Сообщение Р.С. » Ср дек 12, 2007 23:50

Уважаемая Ярослава,
большое спасибо за поправки к отчету, присланные Вами.
Чтобы у читателей не сложилось неправильного впечатления о специальном искажении фактов, должен сообщить, что к нам на форум отчет об итогах конкурса был прислан М. Цветковым, председателем московского клуба любителей канареек.
Также имело бы смысл выложить на канареечных сайтах то положение о конкурсах, на которое Вы ссылаетесь.
И, наконец, чтобы не использовать обезличенные термины, типа "администрация" или "коллегия", скрывающие зачастую интересы конкретных людей, неплохо разъяснить людям, чем различаются "Коллегия судей московского клуба любителей канареек по 63 конкурсу песни канарейки овсяночного напева"
от "Коллегия судей клуба". Желательно с фамилиями, именами и телефонами.
Не менее интересна процедура становления-избрания членами этих "коллегий", то есть, легитимность, выборность, подчинение и орган СМИ, в котором эта информация размещается.
С уважением,
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Сообщение Ярослава » Ср дек 12, 2007 23:57

Юлия Павловна писал(а): Должны быть какие-то БАЗОВЫЕ знания у посещающих семинары? И какой объём и уровень этих знаний - может есть стандартные вопросы (тест) начального уровня судейства, а потом уж семинар. Или там "нулевички"?

Юлия Павловна, там и "нулевички" встречаются.. В своё время я как раз ЭТИМ новичком и была..
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Сообщение mike » Чт дек 13, 2007 0:02

я оканчательно пришёл к выводу как написал в прошлом што вам надо один судя доверённый, честный, квалифокационый со стажем .40 тиц послушать и оценивовать за 4 5 часа в полне хватит.а остальные суди если хорошо понимают в песне пусть старютца зделать привосходных певцов и продать за большиe денги если кто то готов плотить.но за то будут хорошие результаты и исчезнет не соглосовеность у клубов и у охотиков.ДИК а продажа после конкурса или перед конкурсом ето совсем другая история.я 2005 году продал молодых давая послушать через телефон не одну а целую каманду четырёх птиц а потом целую (семю)линию 60 с добавкой.и ето команда каторую разводил и почти 90 процента тренеровал я, стали чемпионами и там нашлись покупатели што плотили 5 раз больше чем я продал но он не продал их нe за какие деньги.мне совсем не было жалко от етого. а птиц ставил на моё имя и призы подарил покупателю с каторым мы дружим до сих пор. 2424
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Сообщение Ярослава » Чт дек 13, 2007 0:16

mike писал(а):я оканчательно пришёл к выводу как написал в прошлом што вам надо один судя доверённый, честный, квалифокационый со стажем

mike, я тоже частенько об этом думаю... Но не уверена, что ЭТО на сегодняшний день правильно...
Русская канарейка-птица специфичная.. Нет чётких стандартов.. Даже если они существуют на бумаге,то птица не всегда пропевает песню (колена) по этим стандартам...
А сейчас компьютерное время..Когда много чего делается именно на компьютере.. Изобретаются новые "мотивы",варианты...
Да и сама по себе птичка может исполнить простое колено по-разному..
Всё-таки бригаде из 3-х судей прослушать и осудить птичку проще...чем одному...
Вообще вопрос судейства -очень сложный, на мой взгляд.. Тем более с нашей птицей... :ii3
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Сообщение Ярослава » Чт дек 13, 2007 0:30

Р.С. писал(а):Чтобы у читателей не сложилось неправильного впечатления о специальном искажении фактов, должен сообщить, что к нам на форум отчет об итогах конкурса был прислан М. Цветковым, председателем московского клуба любителей канареек.

Роман Николаевич, вас никто не обвиняет в искажении фактов..

Р.С. писал(а):Также имело бы смысл выложить на канареечных сайтах то положение о конкурсах, на которое Вы ссылаетесь.

Ссылаюсь на него не я... Если судьи решат выложить в интернете какие -либо документы-выложим... Я хоть и являюсь судьёй, но есть и другие судьи (коллегия)...
Р.С. писал(а):И, наконец, чтобы не использовать обезличенные термины, типа "администрация" или "коллегия", скрывающие зачастую интересы конкретных людей, неплохо разъяснить людям, чем различаются "Коллегия судей московского клуба любителей канареек по 63 конкурсу песни канарейки овсяночного напева"
от "Коллегия судей клуба". Желательно с фамилиями, именами и телефонами.

Роман Николаевич, вы не исправимы... :ii4
Судейская коллегия хотела внести ясность по конкурсу,чтобы не возникало "непоняток"...
Какие вам нужны телефоны и фамилии?
Вы всех судей клуба прекрасно знаете..
И в том материале,который я выложила на наши форумы, нет ничего провокационного, чтобы интересоваться КОНКРЕТНЫМИ фамилиями...
Что опять вас ТАК "завело"? 2116
Р.С. писал(а):Не менее интересна процедура становления-избрания членами этих "коллегий", то есть, легитимность, выборность, подчинение и орган СМИ, в котором эта информация размещается.
С уважением,


А ЭТИ вопросы, я думаю, вы прекрасно можете поднять на январском съезде..

В "выяснялки" на ЭТОМ форуме я играть не собираюсь.. 2116
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Сообщение ФПРК » Чт дек 13, 2007 14:04

Уважаемые форумцы! Касательно итоговой таблицы. Может сложиться неправильное впечатление, что крайний М.В.Цветков. Михаил Васильевич, по моей просьбе быстро оформил результаты конкурса в таблицу и выслал её, вот и всё. В конце таблицы, которая кстати называется "Нагадной список", стоит подпись председателя коллегии судей Цветухина А.Н. Проблем и нарушений особых не вижу. Все замечания и пожелания думаю надо адресовать ему, на ближайшем заседании все недочёты и ошибки наверное будут устранены. А насчёт объективности, да конечно результаты объективны, поскольку они отражают общее мнение всенародно избранной коллегии судей.
Разуваев Александр.
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Сообщение mike » Чт дек 13, 2007 22:41

40 птиц послушать и оценивовать за 4 5 часа в полне хватит. botte извеняюс я перепутал с нашим конкурсом так как там ставляютца по 4 птиц :ii .но мне не понятно то што если там ставляютца на прослушивание не 40 а 140 сорок птиц ?? тогда надо 3 дня прослушать и оценить их.ето как понять сли каждый охотник дрожит за свою птицу???.надо на всё ето найти правильный подход. blush
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Сообщение Р.С. » Ср дек 19, 2007 8:56

Желающие послушать "живьем" пение лучших 4-х птиц 63-го московского конкурса могут сделать это здесь:
rus-canary.ru/cgi-bin/ruscan/p_forum.pl?act=view&id=1621&p=1#start
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Сообщение mike » Пт дек 21, 2007 4:28

РОМАН НИКОЛАЕВИЧ 2424 могу только скaзать, што песня и музыка совсем отличаютца от фотографи и видеозаписи.oдинь очень знаменитый англиский музыкант ,исполнител и композитор когда то в своём интервю сказал. Music is not like taking a photograph…
blush не обижайсa, но ето так. 2116
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Сообщение mike » Пт дек 21, 2007 5:52

дорогой РОМАН ето очень хорошо што планируете классы для русской канареек .но мне не понять они будут по исполнению колень хуже и лутше,?? или по каким методам дресеровать лутше.??? или про кормление.. как и чем кормить иx во время дресеровки.но запомни y всех канарееk есть в генах фраза рррррррррр.и канарейки очень часто производят ето и иногда люди тоже. :) а на перевод очень благадарень професору БЁМЕ .давай попросим што он и перевёл ету статю тоже и вы бы почитали на классах песни в январе .очень поможет нам и всем кто интересуетца песней канареек и и по настоящему любит музыку.. а не видeо :) >>>>>>>>>>> INTRODUCTION
This Code abolishes all regulations that exist before the date of its approval, in reference to the Song Canary. In its construction, there has been specially taken present the concerns of the canary aficionados, as well as the technical observations set forth by people that integrate into the Technical Commission. This way it is an attempt to correct errors of the past, as well as taking advantage of the knowledge of the greatest number of people. We consider that the compilation of a standard cannot be the work of just one person, corresponding to the collective of the cultivators of our breed of canary to decide the basic parameters of selection of the said breed.

To the Technical Commission, that is, to the collective of judges and aspirants of the speciality, awaits the difficult and usually ungrateful task, of interpreting the specific directives given by the aficionados. So that, after a conscientious process of study and technical analysis, they shape the basic and fundamental norms of the breed, which must be and is, the Song Code. The finding of a consensus needed for the approval of any norm, has, as a price to pay, an unavoidable ambiguity when dealing with the most conflictive points, for which, we apologise if in any part of this text it is not clear or precise enough.

I. General Knowledge
1. Exposition

The first thing that we hear when a bird expels air from his lungs trough the syrinx is a series of sounds, produced by the vibration of the syringeal membranes, that can be perfectly transcribed and represented in a song chart by the different signs and musical notes that we use in our regular music. They generate a melody as they sing, creating music, due to the fact that these sounds make up the three fundamental components of music: rhythm, melody, and harmony. At the same time, we can distinguish and clearly differentiate, by the sound similarity, the vowels and the consonants that make up the different musical passages or tours emitted by the canary during the execution of the song.

It is for that reason that we consider so important the complete knowledge of all the characteristics that accompany the sound as physical agent and of the music as a conjugation of sounds. Both components are essential components of the song canary and its knowledge and utilisation will serve us to better comprehend the forth coming explanations of the score sheet and give us a much more amplified knowledge, helping us to be better understood by the fanciers.

To begin with, when we hear a canary song, we are hearing sounds that could be good or bad,

in accordance with they had musicality and melody, or they had simple noise. Because this is the first clear difference that we perceive upon hearing any sound, it is needful that we know what makes this difference. It is not theoretically clear what constitutes the difference (between noise and music), because sometimes music can seem like a noisy sound, and sometimes noise can take on an almost musical sound when associated with other sounds. In spite of that fact, the difference fundamentally is: while in music it is possible to determine the intonation, and the vibrations emitted are consistent; in the noise the vibrations are irregular and in is impossible to determine its intonation.

2. The Sound

We can say that sound is the sensation that is produced in the organ of hearing by the vibratory movement of the bodies, that has been transmitted through an elastic medium such as air. We can deduce that a body can only produce sound if it is capable of vibrations, and it is a must that said waves of vibrations be produced in an elastic medium, this due to the fact that no sound can be transferred through vacuum. The velocity by which sound is propagated varies according to the medium. Thus, in air at zero degrees centigrade the transfer rate of sound is 331 meters per second, and increase at a rate of 0.6 m/s with each degree of rise in temperature. Waves produced by a sound are transmitted by air, being introduced to our eardrum and on into the interior of the inner ear where the nerve endings transfer the sensations to the brain which immediately identifies the sounds and give us the information on what we are hearing. That is to say, that by the tone of those vibrations, the harmonics that accompany them, along with their intensity, we can identify both the characteristics and where the sound comes from. As to the physical aspects of the sounds, we can say that sound is the agent that is manifested in form by vibrating energy and that that is the cause of auditory sensation, while the vibrations are manifested within certain limits. The simple harmonic movement of a vibrating body is transmitted by the elastic medium that surrounds it, provoking in it a series of compressions and refractions that propagate away from the source of the sound. This perturbation forms a longitudinal undulatory movement that has a finite velocity, and properties of reflection, refraction, interference and diffraction:

1) Reflection is the acoustic phenomenon related to the change of direction or the turning back of the sound waves to its original source when they find in their advance an area of adecuate density.

2) Refraction is the acoustic phenomenon related to the change of direction of the sound waves in passage from one medium to another of different density.

3) Interference is the acoustic phenomenon related to the effect produced by two or more sets of sound waves, that on meeting tend to neutralize or augment each other by a combination of disimilar or like phases.

4) Diffraction is the acoustic phenomenon by which the sound waves are detoured when they pass the edge of an obstacle.

All these acoustic phenomenon, results of the characteristics of the medium that propagate the sound waves, can cause a change in the original qualities of the sound when emitted within the original source, and cause the characteristics of the original sound to be perceived as distorted.

3. Sound Qualities

The qualities of sound are three: tone, fundamental frequency or loftiness, intensity, and timbre or quality.

1) The tone is the quality of sound that permits us to distinguish a bass sound from a treble sound, and consists of the number of vibrations by unit time of the sound objects. The higher frequencies produce sharp notes while the slow ones bass notes. Nevertheless, the human ear cannot perceive sound of which the frequency is not within 20 and 20.000 vibrations per second, that is to say only one dozen octaves. In music, a tone is the grater distance of intonation between two consecutive notes, with the exception of the distance of minor intonations from the consecutive notes called semitones and comprehended in the musical scale between MI and FA and between SI and Do.

2) Intensity is the quality of the sound that permits us to distinguish a strong from a weak sound, depending on the amplitude of the sound waves. Major amplitude means more intense while minor less. Nevertheless, the ear cannot perceive a sound whose amplitude is less than a specific value or a minimum level. The minimum intensity is known as "threshold of audibility." If for some reason there is a very great increase in the amplitude of the sound vibrations, the auditory response is pain. The maximum limit supported by the human ear is known as the "threshold of pain."

We must also be able to distinguish between the intensity of sound wave itself and intensity of the perception of sound. The first being dependent upon the amplitude of the vibrations of the body that produces the sound, while the second is dependent upon our auditory sharpness; of the intensity of the sound waves vibrations and, as is logical, the distance we are from the source of the sound.

3) In relation whith the "timbre", we can affirm that it is the quality of the sounds that permit us to distinguish between sounds emitted by different instruments. In other words, the timbre is the quality of the sound that permits us to differentiate between same notes emitted by different instruments, and is related to the complexity of the vibrations, that is, with the presence of harmonics superimposed into the fundamental sound.

To sum up:

- The tone or highness depends on frequency or the number of the vibrations per second of the body producing the sound, permitting us to distinguish between a bass sound and a treble one. It is measured in cycles or Hertzs.

- Intensity or strength depends on the wave's amplitude. That is to say, the energy used to produce the sound allow us to distinguish between a strong sound and a weak one. It is measured in Decibels.

-The timbre, quality or color of the sound depends upon the number of harmonics that accompany the main sound and permits us to distinguish between two sounds of equal tone

4. What is music?

In accordance with the " Real Academy Dictionary of the Spanish Language," we can say that music is the art of combining sounds in the time, in such a manner that they produce pleasure to the hearer as well as affecting his/her sensibility. The three essential elements in music are rhythm, melody and harmony.

5. The qualities of music

1) Rhythm. It behooves us to remember that music is made up of sounds, so it is subject to the law or rules of sounds. In relation with the essential elements of music, the order and proportion in the timing determine musical rhythm. Rhythm is born out of the inner necessity of man’s mind to establish an order for all he perceives. For example, in dancing, rhytm regulates the movements; in poetry, the metric structure and proper emphasis; and in music, the systematical joining of consecutive sounds. Rhythm existed, both in bands and savage tribes, before music itself was born.

The relationship between the two came about when man realised the unity of harmony and melody. That is to say, rhythm preceded melody, and harmony came after the melody as a result of the logical evolution. For this reason, rhythm is based on the duration of the sounds and is manifested in what we call a "compass" in music. Nevertheless, we must not confuse the rhythm with the compass, due to the fact that a rhythmic unit can be made up of several compasses or just one. The compass is the unit of notation elected by the composer according to his own likes and conveniences.

The appearance of the compass constituted a technical need to conjugate the musicians, thanks to it the uncontestable reality of rhythm was perceived, and the idea that it is fundamental to confer on it an absolute regularity was a must.

2) Melody is the element of music that consists in the succession of diverse sounds jointed between themselves, as well as all of them in a set, in a musical sense, that is to say, that in melody there are interwoven sounds with different intensity, intonation and duration, creating music.

3) Harmony is the musical element that consists in the combination of simultaneous and dissimilar sounds, but in acorde. The difference between harmony and melody resides fundamentally in that in the melody the sounds come one after another, while in harmony the sounds are superimposed, thus, when the individual canary sings, he creates melody, while when the canary team sings, the birds together create harmony.

6. To Sing

In the former paragraphs we used the verb "to sing" and we can say, simply, that to sing means to emit with the voice organs a series of modulated sounds.

7. Modulation

The general musical concept of modulation can be adapted to our field by defining it as melodious variations produced during the emission of tours related to produce changes in the tone or intensity of the voice of the singer. The modulation of the intensity is produced when during the emission of the tour the volume is modified to become greater than or less than it was, with periodical changes from one to another. The modulation in the tone is produced when, during the emission of the tour, the cadence of the notes that make up the tour are modified giving the auditory sensation that the vowels that form the notes change, due to the fact that they go from bass (o, u) to treble (a, e, i), from treble to bass, or periodical changes from one to the other.

8. Musical tinge

We can say that the musical tinge refers to the distinct degrees of intensity that can be given to sound and are given names, usually Italian, that range from pianissimo to fortissimo and expressions such as crescendo, etc., that modify the motives.

9. Harmonics

When we hear sound we must take in account that what we are listening is in fact a mix of various sounds. The note we hear is the one that dominates, but at the same time, and at the same instant, superimposed, we hear softer, sometimes almost barely perceived, sounds that blend perfectly with the fundamental note because they have a perfect relationship in their sound wave frequencies. These sounds are called harmonics and are those that give beauty to the song, and make it interesting. The bird that emits with its syringe these sounds with greater ease is considered a more capacitated bird and in the same manner, we can say that the human ear that is best prepared to hear these sounds is considered more sensitive in the musical sense.

10. The canary’s song

Along with the calls or grievances and screams, the song of the canary represents a form of acoustical communication that has territorial and sexual meanings as main functions. Territorial is the song when the canary, as with the rest of the passerines, marks and identifies his territory to the rest of his kind; and his song sexual when used to attract and conquer the females.

Physiologically the song is the answer to a series of stimuli. The production of the song is determined by the secretion of the male hormone, testosterone. The evolution of the song is specifically linked to the increase in the levels of this hormone in the blood of the canary. This is manifested in certain areas of the brain that control the song, especially the High Vocal Center, whose size increases or decreases according to the levels of testosterone in the blood.

The information about the song is transmitted from the High Vocal Center to the Robust Nucleus of the Archistriatum, and from here to the Hypoglossal Nuclei, that innervates the muscles of the syringe, which is the organ that produces sound in birds.

11. How does the song apparatus in the canary function?

When air stored in the air sacs and in the lungs is expelled to the exterior, it passes through the syrinx, which is situated between the bronchial and the trachea, causing vibration of this organ's membranes. These vibrating organs are called, in birds, tympaniforms membranes and are equivalent to our vocal chords. In the production of sound, a very important role is played by the sternum-tracheal (sterno-trachealis) muscle, and a group of five to seven pairs of tiny internal muscles that make possible the elongation and contraction of the syrinx, permitting the variation of frequency or tone of the sound. It is as important the role of the inter-clavicular air sac which provide the appropriate external pressure needed to the tympaniforms membranes be tensed, and so, making possible the sound. The esophagus acts as a resonance box and cause the sound to be amplified.

The syrinx produces the basic sound, but in order to understand the final results that we hear, we must take into account the part that the oral cavity (beak and tongue) plays where the definitive articulation of the sounds are produced. Some researchers noted that there are two types of sound articulation in the canary: the guttural (dominant in the continuous rhythm tours) and the lingual. This would explain the richness and the complexity of the consonant sounds our canaries can emit.

We can see that the song apparatus of the canary is extremely complex and that all their parts play a determinate role in the production of sound.

12. Onomatopoeia

This concept means the formation of words in imitation of natural sounds. When speaking about song canary we use onomatopoeias to assimilate the sounds that are emitted by the canary to vowels and consonants of the different human alphabets, so that in this form we make it much easier to interpret this sounds. That way we say, for example, that the canary emits a short "e", it exaggerates the "r", or it is singing "clok clok clock".

13. Syllable

In our case, after onomatopoeiaticly translating the sounds emitted by the canary into vowels and consonants, we assimilate this concept into grammar as "articulated sound or sounds that constitute a phonetic nuclei." We thus say that the canary emits sounds that form, for example the following syllables: "ri", "ro", "bu," "un," "ti," "lo," "long," "clak," "tu," "glu," "glui," "fiu," etc.

14. Diphthong

As in the above case using the concept of the syllable, now after we have onomatopoeiaticly translated the sounds emitted by the canary into vowels, we can define this concepts by grammatical assimilation as: "two vowels that together form part of only one syllable." This way we say that the canary emits sounds that form, for example, the following diphthongs included in the syllables indicated: "ui" in the syllables "tui" and "glui," "oi" in the syllable "toi", and "ou" in the syllable "glou", and so forth.

15. Triphthong

As in the concept of the syllables, in this case, after having translated onomatopoeiaticly the sounds emitted by the canary in vowels, we define this concept by grammatical assimilation as: "the union of three vowels to pronounce only one syllable." Thus we say that a canary emits sounds that form, for example, the following triphthongs: "oui" in the syllables "bloui," and "iau" in the syllable "piau…"

16. Note

In our case, we will assimilate this concept to the concept of word in grammar, in the sense that, as is in words, the notes formed by the joining of syllables express a definite idea in a code, which in this case is in the Song Codes.

In the same manner that words can be formed by one or many syllables, we classify the notes in attendance to their composition as monosyllabic, if they are formed by a single syllable, or polysyllabic if they are formed by more than one syllable.

Examples of monosyllabic notes, are the following: "ri", "re", "ro", "ru", "bu", "un", "clak", "clok", "lu", "fui", "piau", etc.

Examples of the polysyllabic notes are the following: "tu-li" "to-li" "ti-long", "pi-yo", "ti-ro-ri", etc.

17. Tour or Variation

We will define a tour or variation as a set of notes emitted by the canary, linked one to another, that share syllabic and rhythmic characteristics of composition which are defined in a code. In one sense of the word, we could assimilate this concept to the grammatical term of "phrase" or the musical term of "passage" or "tour."

The tours, according with the notes that form them, will be classified as tours of limited phonetic text, and tours of unlimited phonetic text:

- Tours of limited phonetic text will be those notes that are formed by specific consonants and vowels. For example, the consonants "L" and "N" and the vowel "E" in the jingle bell tour (lenlenlen…), or the consonants "C", "L", and "K" in the castanet tour (clakclakclak…) and so forth.

- Tours with unlimited phonetic text will be those notes formed by any consonant and vowel. We find this tour for example in flourish, slow flourish and in the conjoined variations.

18. Diction

In our case diction is the quality of sounds emitted by the canary that allow us to identify and onomatopoeiaticly translate them according to the rules set forth in the song code. If the form of emission permits us to clearly translate those sounds, then we will say that the diction is good, while on the contrary we say it has a bad or confused diction.

19. Song

The song is the conjunction of a group of joined tours, one after the other sung by the canary in a given period of time.

20. Repertoire

Repertoire is the set of the different songs that can sing a canary.

21. Strophe

A section of the song sung by the canary made up of several tours.

22. Trill

Trill is the rapid and alternated succession of two distinct notes of equal duration.

23. - Modulated tours

-Ascending tour is the tour whose modulated intensity goes from less volume to more, or, whose modulation of tone goes from less to more treble, or from more to less bass.

-Descending tour is the tour whose modulated intensity goes from more volume to less, or, whose modulated tone goes form more treble to less, or from less bass to more.

- Undulated tour will be said of the tour produced by the combination of both ascending and descending tours.

- Horizontal or flat tour will be the tour that neither has intensity modulation or tonal modulation.

24. Watery Sounds

In our case, sounds emitted by the canary that assimilate the sound of a babbling brook, or the sound of drops of water falling from a certain height are known as water like or Watery notes. When translating onomatopoeiaticly, we consider water like sounds those in which the combination of the consonants "GL", or "BL" (or in some other languages they are expressed with a "WL") with the vowels "E", "O" and "U" and their respective diphthongs and triphthongs. These syllables give origin to he notes that forms the watery tours that can be classified, according to the emission rhytmh, as slow waters and semi-ligate waters.

25. Graze Sounds

Sound emitted by the canary with a melodic imbalance with the perception of the consonant "R" above the vowels, causing the tour in question to be somewhat harsh and lacking in melodious softness. If this disequilibrium of the consonant "R" is very noticeable we will have another concept called "Screechy or Scratchy" that is defined later on in the Code.
КОД ПЕСНИ КАНАРЕЕК. желаю удачи. 2424
mike
опытный канаровод
опытный канаровод
 
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Сообщение Ejik » Пт дек 21, 2007 9:19

Роман Николаевич! Вас не исправить!!!
НИКАКИХ прямых ссылок!!!! Реклама у нас обычно удаляется! :ii3
Ejik
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опытный любитель
 
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Сообщение mike » Пт дек 21, 2007 20:51

ЁЖИК особенно тогда когда, обсуждеие, критика и реклама совместно. 2424
mike
опытный канаровод
опытный канаровод
 
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